My first experience getting flamed on my blog
Today I finally got flamed by one of the thousand people or so who have somehow come across my blog. It's a good thing and I'll respond.
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So, am I to understand this correctly...we've been convinced that a mushroom cloud was on the horizon if we don't invade this country and depose its leader. It would be appeasement to get out now?
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I was never convinced that there were WMD in Iraq and I didn't see Hussein PERSONALLY as a threat, but what I DO see in the mideast are mass totalitarian movements growing. The nuclear weapon there is a hundred million young men whose minds have been filled with garbage and who, if given half a chance, would exterminate each and every one of us.
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Though it's cute to talk about those crazy people that want to compare us to Saddam it serves only to reinforce the argument that we "stay the course" in Iraq.
=============================
NO it's not cute, is an important moral distinction between liberal democracies and insane megalomanics who commit genocide. People who blur distinctions such as this have been doing it for years. There is no moral equivalency between terrorists dedicated to the destruction of civilization and a liberal democracy prosecuting a war against them.
==========================
What you and Hitchens are advocating is the contiuation of the same policies.
And, those policies are: lie to America that we are in emminint danger of attack, lie to us that Saddam had weapons of mass distruction (Wilson's trip to Niger, mushroom cloud, mobile chemical plants all proven by the 9-11 commission to not be the case and we new it), the Downing Street Memo's that show that indeed was the policy, try to win the war on the cheap without enough troops to secure the place, ignore over a 1000 years of history of not one western civilization has ever EVER succeded in conquering the populace. Soon after the war began the president and his aides OK'd the use of torture to try and secure useable intelligence. It, of course, backfired. Do you really think that Lindsay England was the one responsible for the sexual dog pile? There are a whole bunch of pictures and movies that that a federal judge has ordered the pentagon to release. They have refused. Rumsfeld has said about those pictures that they would make matters much worse. Lindsay Grahm senator from South Carolina has said that these pictures and photos are of activity of such perversion that he can't bear repeat what he saw except that it was the rape of Ten year old boys by men in american uniforms. The policy of torture does not work, it only makes matters worse.
==============================================
Niether I nor Hitchens are advocating anything of the sort. If China invaded North Korea, and you were aware that the NOrth Koreans have starved to death around a million people, and the Chinese used lies to get there, would you be going apeshit? I doubt it.
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Abu Graib is not what America stands for. We have the constitution, we have the Geneva conventions, we have the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, we won't defeat anybody by torture. And, we certainly will only destroy our cause and ourselves by shiting on these rules of law that many men and women have sacrificed themselves for.
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This is high-minded and I admire it but the constitution isn't a suicide pact. In dealing with an uncivilized enemy, we may find ourselves in a position of defeat because of this. I don't take anything off the table.
=======================
Abu Graib is not a Nazi extermination camp. Yes, people in the peace crowd make stupid comparisions. But, John McCain knows a little about torture and he says it doesn't work. I tend to think the law he is proposing (to make it illegal to torture) will only continue to see resistance from this incompetent administration.
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The Vietnamese were downright civilized compared to these people.
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Fascim is an easily bandied about word. It's real definition is a bit more illusive. But, I worry far less about religious idiots in dirty night shirts trying to bring about the vision of a perfect 14th century islamic revolution than I do about our leaders and citizens that are ready to staple the patriot act over the top of the bill of rights, take a flame thrower to the Geneva conventions because they are inconvenient, or make our Judge Advocate General officers into a new Starr chamber.
======================
Then you should pay closer attention. Those 'idiots' have been able to attack all over the world, have leveled the world trade center and DID have control of Afghanistan before 911. If you aren't worried about them, and you think we are the problem, then you aren't paying attention. Berman pointed out that before WWII the French Socialists under Paul Fauriste were convinced the greatest enemy of the world was French militarism. Many of them ended up supporting the Vichy government. It is this same dynamic here; denial of these mass movements, these cults of suicide and death and the inflation of American "imperialism" for political gain.
========================
Couple this with rhetoric from the talking heads that people that don't agree with the president should be shot (courtsey of one of our own congressman) and the word fascism would probably better apply. Fascism is not something that is applied externally through some sort of strong armed leader. It's a mood created within a population that feels it's being persecuted and that it's looking for a "re-birth", it is an essentially corporatist movement that will demand an ellimination of those who disagree and a resurgance of a purely nationalist identity. It will have no strict comparison to a German or Italian style 20th century fascism. What you must realize is that it will grow from an unexpected movement that seems mainstream but takes it's philosophy directly from the most extreme elements of society.
==============================
Fascism is not something that is applied externally through some sort of strong armed leader.
=============================
Your kidding, right?
====================
Though Hitchens' points are well taken, I'm much more worried about the demand for one party rule hear at home coupled with this insane desire to destroy the law we've worked so hard to establish. Bin Laden and his ilk will always be able to create terror. We can't always survive the pretzels we tie are selves in responding to its threat.
=====================
The danger is greater that we ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. This is what we have been doing for years. This is the greatest failing of the American left.
===================================
So, am I to understand this correctly...we've been convinced that a mushroom cloud was on the horizon if we don't invade this country and depose its leader. It would be appeasement to get out now?
=======================================
I was never convinced that there were WMD in Iraq and I didn't see Hussein PERSONALLY as a threat, but what I DO see in the mideast are mass totalitarian movements growing. The nuclear weapon there is a hundred million young men whose minds have been filled with garbage and who, if given half a chance, would exterminate each and every one of us.
================================
Though it's cute to talk about those crazy people that want to compare us to Saddam it serves only to reinforce the argument that we "stay the course" in Iraq.
=============================
NO it's not cute, is an important moral distinction between liberal democracies and insane megalomanics who commit genocide. People who blur distinctions such as this have been doing it for years. There is no moral equivalency between terrorists dedicated to the destruction of civilization and a liberal democracy prosecuting a war against them.
==========================
What you and Hitchens are advocating is the contiuation of the same policies.
And, those policies are: lie to America that we are in emminint danger of attack, lie to us that Saddam had weapons of mass distruction (Wilson's trip to Niger, mushroom cloud, mobile chemical plants all proven by the 9-11 commission to not be the case and we new it), the Downing Street Memo's that show that indeed was the policy, try to win the war on the cheap without enough troops to secure the place, ignore over a 1000 years of history of not one western civilization has ever EVER succeded in conquering the populace. Soon after the war began the president and his aides OK'd the use of torture to try and secure useable intelligence. It, of course, backfired. Do you really think that Lindsay England was the one responsible for the sexual dog pile? There are a whole bunch of pictures and movies that that a federal judge has ordered the pentagon to release. They have refused. Rumsfeld has said about those pictures that they would make matters much worse. Lindsay Grahm senator from South Carolina has said that these pictures and photos are of activity of such perversion that he can't bear repeat what he saw except that it was the rape of Ten year old boys by men in american uniforms. The policy of torture does not work, it only makes matters worse.
==============================================
Niether I nor Hitchens are advocating anything of the sort. If China invaded North Korea, and you were aware that the NOrth Koreans have starved to death around a million people, and the Chinese used lies to get there, would you be going apeshit? I doubt it.
==================
Abu Graib is not what America stands for. We have the constitution, we have the Geneva conventions, we have the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, we won't defeat anybody by torture. And, we certainly will only destroy our cause and ourselves by shiting on these rules of law that many men and women have sacrificed themselves for.
=============================
This is high-minded and I admire it but the constitution isn't a suicide pact. In dealing with an uncivilized enemy, we may find ourselves in a position of defeat because of this. I don't take anything off the table.
=======================
Abu Graib is not a Nazi extermination camp. Yes, people in the peace crowd make stupid comparisions. But, John McCain knows a little about torture and he says it doesn't work. I tend to think the law he is proposing (to make it illegal to torture) will only continue to see resistance from this incompetent administration.
====================
The Vietnamese were downright civilized compared to these people.
============================
Fascim is an easily bandied about word. It's real definition is a bit more illusive. But, I worry far less about religious idiots in dirty night shirts trying to bring about the vision of a perfect 14th century islamic revolution than I do about our leaders and citizens that are ready to staple the patriot act over the top of the bill of rights, take a flame thrower to the Geneva conventions because they are inconvenient, or make our Judge Advocate General officers into a new Starr chamber.
======================
Then you should pay closer attention. Those 'idiots' have been able to attack all over the world, have leveled the world trade center and DID have control of Afghanistan before 911. If you aren't worried about them, and you think we are the problem, then you aren't paying attention. Berman pointed out that before WWII the French Socialists under Paul Fauriste were convinced the greatest enemy of the world was French militarism. Many of them ended up supporting the Vichy government. It is this same dynamic here; denial of these mass movements, these cults of suicide and death and the inflation of American "imperialism" for political gain.
========================
Couple this with rhetoric from the talking heads that people that don't agree with the president should be shot (courtsey of one of our own congressman) and the word fascism would probably better apply. Fascism is not something that is applied externally through some sort of strong armed leader. It's a mood created within a population that feels it's being persecuted and that it's looking for a "re-birth", it is an essentially corporatist movement that will demand an ellimination of those who disagree and a resurgance of a purely nationalist identity. It will have no strict comparison to a German or Italian style 20th century fascism. What you must realize is that it will grow from an unexpected movement that seems mainstream but takes it's philosophy directly from the most extreme elements of society.
==============================
Fascism is not something that is applied externally through some sort of strong armed leader.
=============================
Your kidding, right?
====================
Though Hitchens' points are well taken, I'm much more worried about the demand for one party rule hear at home coupled with this insane desire to destroy the law we've worked so hard to establish. Bin Laden and his ilk will always be able to create terror. We can't always survive the pretzels we tie are selves in responding to its threat.
=====================
The danger is greater that we ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. This is what we have been doing for years. This is the greatest failing of the American left.
posted by Robert Smith at 10:27 AM
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